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Debate about The Clan System on BBC History

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I've just come across this on the BBC History website and thought I'd share it and ask your opinions.   The subject of the debate is:


The role of the clans: Scottish clans today are more about attracting American dollars than preserving Scottish heritage.



The comments were interesting:



Strongly For: I'd say strongly for, the clan system is unique to the Highlands of Scotland and if you wanted to comment on issues important to the rest of Scotland outside the Highlands, the Lowlands and the Borders, then certainly the mythical clan nonsense is pushed far too greatly. Today we have clans and tartans in the Lowlands that are a travesty to the rich Scottish heritage of the Lowlands and work to distract attention away from the historical reality of the Lowlands, from the Covenantors to Rabbie Burns, to tartan and Gaelic which, in a historical sense have no place in Lowland Scottish history and are currently drawing more attention to their place in Scottish history than their weight merits. However, of course the Yanks love the nonsense that is the Royal Mile, and canny Scots know how to draw the dollars from their pockets, history in many ways is irrelevant.
Brian - Kilmarnock



Strongly Against: Clans are active in many countries around the world, other than th U.S., so it is mainly a U.S. interest. Scotland should wake up and appreciate that clans are worlwide and stop catering to only a small segment of the clan heritage.
Neil Fraser - Toronto, Canada



Strongly For: As a proud lowland Scot I am tired of kilts and jacobite highlanders in clans being used as a quaint, twee emblem of so-called Scottishness, which North American, especially American tourists love so much. Nowadays Edinburgh is crammed with kilted Highland bagpipe players - when 300 years ago no one would have thought of dressing up as idealised Highlanders in presbyterian Lowland Scotland. Clans are not my heritage that's for sure - my heritage is British anyway, as well as Scottish.
John Thomson - East Lothian, Scotland



Strongly Against: Absolute rubbish its to do with Scottish identity culture and belonging! America has nothing to do with our clan system!
Robert Duncan - Stranraer



Against: from a governmental position it maybe is,their like slaves to the dollar/pound. i think you will find with many highlanders,or scots decended from highland stock,that the clans mean so much more,and in a very small way, define who they are.
Alasdair Macdonald - Argyll



Strongly For: issues that were relevant to local people could be sorted by the people of respect in the community, anyway after all the expenses scandal at Westminster has our modern democratic system really progressed because sitting in the Highlands currently, I just see corruption being at the heart of this system currently operated called democracy that we are attempting to impose in places like Afganistan where a clan system still exisists in places.
Calum Macleod - Isle Of Skye



Strongly Against: The Highlands natural exisitance was corrupted by english desire for supremacy and to that end the Stewart monarchy plight. The clan system worked to a degree and was brought down by the ambition of one mans vantity. The future of the highlander looks no better as a stealth clearance takes hold!!
Calum Macleod - Croft Isle Of Skye



Strongly Against: The question is a curious one. It sounds as if it was posed by someone who is not a part of a clan. Or so it seems to someone who sees their clan as part of their identity, and something that was a part of me before I was aware of international trade or tourism.
Dougie - East Dunbartonshire



Neutral: The history of the clans is important and anyone who is a descendant of a clan should know its history.
Michael Munro - London, Uk



Strongly Against: As a dynamic passionate Scots who is the Founder of Scots In London a large Scottish organisation which connects thousands of Scots In London - a city with the equivalent number of Scots to make it Scotland's third largest city, I would strongly diagree. Having attended The Gathering in Holyrood Park Edinburgh in July and having attended the Scottish Diaspora event in The Scottish Parliament debating chamber and being thanked personally by Michael Russell MSP The Scottish Minister for Culture in The Scottish Government, I can wholeheartedly say that I was a very very proud Scot when I attended The Gathering and walked up The Royal Mile as part of The Clan Procession in the evening. There were so may third, four and fifth generation Scots, who were wearing the tartan and weregreat ambasssadors for Scotland. With the Edinburgh International Festival setting Scotland as a Premier International Arts Festival I was so proud that an event like The Gathering has finally allowed Scots at home and abroad to celebrate our great culture and traditions, as a perfect complement to the sheer cultural and international diversity of something like the Edinburgh Festival which is a celebration of international arts and culture. Well done Scots In Scotland and those celebrating Scottish culture abroad - Global Scots and Affinity Scots - fabulous ambassadors for Scotland. Yours aye, Eddie Tait, Founder, SCOTSIN - Global Scottish Network (www.scotsin.com)
Eddie Tait - Edinburgh And London




Strongly For: Up the MacIntosh!Noble - Edinburgh

Against: It is definitely part of it, but on balance i disagree that it is more about foreign dollars. It is more about heritage than income, but both are important. There is nothing wrong with using our heritage to generate income through tourism even if it is through the romanticised idea of the shortbread tin tartan highlander, I'm fine with that.George Mcnaughton - Ayrshire

Strongly For: Mark-Elgin is right. Read the correspondence to and by General Monck when Cromwell put him(Monck) in charge of Scotland. One English officer wrote to Monck bemoaning the fact that the highlanders would not recognise that they, the army under Monck,by subduing the clans,were in fact freeing them from a form of slavery. I'm sure that there was a fair bit of reality in the officer's comments. John Macmillan - Monifieth

Strongly Against: The people of Scotland know on an individual basis what clan they originate from, it's that inner knowledge that keeps the spirit of clan history alive - not money. It's an insult to even read it.Darren - Edinburgh

Neutral: the american people who have connections with scotland think more highly of scotland than some of its current population -the rest should be encouraged to visit and support the country -try telling clan mcgregor members in america that they know nothing of scottish history--- other americans may know nothing about king robert the bruce, king charles and king william of orange and how each used their power to undermine clan mcgregor did you.Stewart Short - Chryston Glasgow

Strongly Against: The clan system in Scotland was wiped out in ' the aftermath of Culloden 'the British Army and unionist government won a victory and then proceeded to lose the ' peace 'through there attrocities carried out against the clans-people of the north-east and highlands of Scotland,they may try and romanticise it through unionists like Sir Walter Scott giving us the ' tartan cliche 'and their greatest bit of union propaganda ' the Scottish Enlightenment which was good for the central belt of Scotland but did nothing for the clans-people who were being cleared from their homes by the clan-chiefs and land-owners of 18th century ' enlightened Scotland ,if the children of these unfortunate people wish to return and spend money and time here they should be encouraged to visit their clan territory and see who gained from their ancestor's forced removal from their homeland,and remember sadly it was done by scot to scot.
Bob - Kingdom



Neutral: A very good point by Clare Oliphant about (essentially, I think)giving people a sense of their past and heritage, and of 'beloning' to a wider'family'. However, I beieve that efort does haved to be made to promote that, these days, as a lot of treadition and heritage was lost in the the clearances, and the 'Anglesising' (British-ising?) of Scotland. I believe the Mcallister clan lands (correct me- I'm prob. wrong!) are around the Argyll penninsula (???)., but my uncertainty is testimony to a need to put in work to get the glans back in touch with their roots. (I was brought up in Glasgow- I think my family connection to the trad. lands is as recent as G, or GG Grand father. I was given no sense of family or clan tradition or heritage growing up. I have Greek friends who, althoygh their families live in Athens or Salonika, still maintain their connections to their trad. territories in the country, and spend much of their free time there. Other cultures are similar in this. Scotland's has bedcome so diluted and and 'Britishised' (?) that it needs a bit of mon ey and effort put in to re-connect the diaspora,and reinvigorate the traditions and heritage, in order to fully achieve what Clare rightly (I think) says is important. To add to my first point, though: if it happens to turn a Dollar or two as a result?- (Shrug) why not: that's just the way of the world right now! (for good or bad...!?).
Murray Mcalister - London



Strongly Against: I feel that Clans nowadays bring together families worldwide, there doesnt need to be money spend on gatherings to do this!
Clare Oliphant - Scotland



Strongly Against: No clan does what it did back in the day after the 1745 was hard for any clan to continue as it had. Clearances then being used in the empire years. No clan looks after its members but would be good to bring it back.
Stu - Lanarkshire



Neutral: Good point about the difference in the Lowlands and Highlands, even in Moray there is a Lowland and Highland division with the coastal parts being Lowland... and Highlanders were not welcome in Elgin even back in the 15th century, as they were seen as thieves and "tinks". I think that this perception was common across most of Scotland and it's only post Walter Scott and the Union that there's been a romanticism for that way of life. I'd like to further add that Highland Clans were not made up of relatives and people who wandered into a clan territory could pledge allegiance and be accepted. But the family bond was very important in the early days of Union and the inroads by the Scots into the new trading territories.
Mark - Elgin



Strongly Against: The last tribal culture in Europe subjected to all forms of attack for three centuries and still the vestiges won't go away. Life in the glens of pre-Union Scotland must have been harsh with an infant mortality rate unimaginable in the cotton wool society of Modern Britain. Yet out of this harsh land came a people that where the tallest, healthiest, fiercest and with a stronger bond of kinship than any other people of Europe. That is why our dear neighbour to the South still drifts between fear and respect driven mostly by how useful we are to the "United" Kingdom at the moment. Are the Scottish clans today are more about attracting American dollars than preserving Scottish heritage? Absolutely Not! But like any culture we've got to make a living. We used to be second to none in mining and manufacturing, but that was taken away. So we get by as best we can.
Russell - Stirling



Neutral: Scant- but quality- comments on this one! (All from us regulars!) Must boe to Stu's suewrior knowledge in of the Field (I'm a Medievalist, myself: M.A- and 'Crusades' focussed.) I think there is much agreement here (especially between Stu and myself- My comment was, pretty much 'cut to the chase- there it is!; Stu's, a more studied, and informative answer; same conclusion? I think, yes.) Mark's comments were to the point, and, as ever, well made, too. (Always a bit kinda cynical as to the role of History, and the study of History( Fair comment?) Is it SO negative a thing?; and such an obstacle to progress? Or can more a lifeline, an 'anchor' to our past, and heritage- to steady us as we look to the future: which, cosequently, seems a less 'alien'. unknown, and scary place? I'm thinking this debate Q lacks a little something of 'The cat among the pidgeons!' (sorry Moderator- just a thought!). Maybe we can stir it up some?- we usually do..!
Murray Mcallister - London



Against: Hi Murray Mark and Anne - I'm mildly against the premis. I did a PhD a while back, part of which was a study of Scottish baronets. One thing that came across very strongly was the importance of the family in Scotland. The 'clan', as I'm sure you are aware, related specifically the highland region. In fact the BBC series - which we don't get in England (why not, Auntie?)- does perpetuate the error. For instance, there's no way the Leslies (a solid Fifeshire family) could be called, strictly speaking a clan. However, if you look beyond the hype, the family structure was very stronger than elsewhere in GB. Whether, in the long run, this made things better or worse for Scotland, is a matter for dispute. I happen to think was a benefit - it was feudal-ish, but simplified sturctures and alliegences which must have helped in policing the country and in national defence. Obviously, these days, the clan thing meshes well with the tourist trade, especially as many more people are tracing their ancestors via Mormon databases and the like. On one level this does possibly trivialise an important part of Scottish history. However, if you pare away the commercialism, you are left with a true picture of social cohesion. Ok, the families did spend as much time fighting each other as they outside enemies, but I think the family system was a factor in developing Scotland and has a greater importance than simply coining in dollars.
Stu - Durham



Strongly For: Not a new thing just a wider target, the myths have been peddled down the centurys, anything for the coin. Just a sanatised and dewy eyed nostalgia fest of commercialism built on Walter Scott stories. And you wonder why the rest of the world can only think of kilts and haggis, which are all part of the illusion. Reality...Clan chiefs using their tenants for fighting, building their fortunes and then turfing them out as lairds. Blood and money, ah the good old days.
Mark - Elgin



Neutral: Hmmm I'm not sure how much debate can be drawn from this one(?); but how's this to kick off with!- In todays consumerist world almost EVERYTHING is 'product', and aimed at the bottom line (Dollars; but don't forget Yen; Euro's; Swiss Francs and the rest- they all carry the same'ker-ching!'). The clans, and Scottish Heritage DO serve the purpose of preserving Scottish heritage, history and identity- but for what main purpose, today?- Selling the Scottish 'Brand' to foriegn tourists- giving 'em what they want, when they choose to spend their hols in Scotland (I'm pretty sure they don't come for the weather!). Americans tend to have a feeling of estrangement from their ancient, ancestral heritage, and love European antiqity, and the chance to connect with their lineage going back pre-Pilgrim Fathers. Scottish Heritage, the clans, and all that, keeps that alive for them, and for Scotland- it's important. That it (like most things nowadays) happens to packaged as a brand, and a 'nice little earner', in these times, is just the way it is..!
Murray Mcallister - London



For: A walk down Edinburgh's Royal Mile will tell you the truth about the clans. Rows of tartan shops aimed at parting tourists from their money. sad but true
Anne - Stirling

The final results were


Strongly For: 23% | For: 4% | Neutral: 23% | Against: 12% | Strongly Against: 38%









  and  like this.
Nadine Lee
Thanks Amanda - great link!
Scott McKenzie
Very interesting debate...
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